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Transcript for On The Wing Podcast Ep. 332: Chukar Hunting Secrets and Habitat Insights from Biologists and Avid Hunters

Bob St.Pierre (00:50.728)

Welcome to On the Wing podcast presented by Purina ProPlan. I've titled this episode, Chucker Curious, because I've got one biologist who knows a heck of a lot about Chukars, got a returning guest co-worker who loves to hunt Chukars, we've got Andrew back. You knew if I started talking Chukars, Andrew is going to be part of the conversation.

And then you got me, two guys that don't know heck of a lot about chukars and two people that know a lot about chukars. And we are going to have a Chukar curious conversation. As we move through intros, since it is hunting season, I'm going to ask each of our guests to also give us a field report. And no better person to live vicariously through than Levi Day, the conservation leadership.

programs manager for pheasants forever and quail forever Calling in from the west. How many states do you have under your belt so far?

You know, I haven't traveled quite as much. did just get back from Wyoming late last night. And so that was good. living in this wonderful state that I do, you don't have travel to very much, but it seems like I always find a way to venture to court.

in living in the state you do, you live in Idaho.

Levi Day (02:21.281)

I live in Idaho.

Give us a little bit about what you do for the organization and tell us what you found in the fields.

Yeah, so as you mentioned, my title is Conservation Leadership Programs Manager, and essentially I manage programs that help to create opportunities for people to find careers in a wonderful space of conservation.

and field report.

So,

Levi Day (02:46.254)

As far as truckers are concerned, I would say that the numbers are looking pretty good, especially in our holdover birds. Last year we had a really great, but I don't think that we had quite as good a hatch this year. So the holdover looks good and there's still a lot of birds on the landscape, but not going to be.

year.

Bob St.Pierre (03:09.579)

and

probably what we were all hoping of like the Shangri-La of checkered numbers or numbers that returned back to the early nineties. but still some incredible opportunities where I've been, but I haven't been out too much. the opener was this last weekend and I was in Wyoming and then, I usually wait for the snakes and, know, rough grouse and dusky grouse have my heart too. So I get after those really hard during the month of September.

Bye!

Andrew Vavra (03:37.806)

I was just going to say that is like snake city and some of that country this time of year, you're braver than I'd ever be. I freak out over a garter snake. So that's just me. Like, that's a lot of snake action.

How was the Wyoming trip? as Andrew knows, that's like number one on my destination dream with a bullet. Did you find some duskies and ruffs?

I'm right there with you.

Levi Day (04:06.008)

Wyoming is an incredible state. I actually went there to hunt antelope, but I left two days early and I was able to stop in Eastern Idaho and hunted Southeastern Idaho for rough grouse and it was really good. I don't know if, you know, I've had the opportunity to hunt Wisconsin and...

Southeastern Idaho is pretty dang good. So had lots of contacts, got to go run my puppy and my middle dog and it was a lot of fun. And then from there I buzzed on over to Wyoming and yeah, I got to see, you know, it's such a game rich state and incredible state. You know, antelope, elk, mule deer, whitetails, sage grouse, chukers, pheasants, really saw bears, saw the gamut and was able to.

bring home really nice analog bucks.

guys. Our featured guest for this episode, Katherine Isaak, I saw you shaking your head in affirmation when Levi said, probably didn't have the chucker reproduction that everyone was hoping for. So that's your expectation based on your looking through your biologist lens?

Well, yeah, it was opening weekend in Idaho. And so I was out there two days before kind of trying to find the actual plants that Chucker eat. And so my advisor, Dr. Jennifer Forby likes to call me like half bird dog because I creep up on them so easily and like I can find them. I don't know. It's really weird. We discovered this last year and

Catherine Isaak (05:57.87)

This season, all four five days I was out there, it was true. I was creeping up on them. And we'd just look at each other, and then I'd do my thing, and they'd do their thing. But it also was really hot. So the birds were hunkering down. And so I don't think I could really give a super clear estimate, but I agree with Levi in terms of number-wise. I would even argue it's 20 % less than it was last year.

my tentative, you know, based off of five days, but also just seeing the hunters as I went through, like even they were saying the birds were spooky and it was just kind of hard to shoot.

We're going to get into why you're able to find them, and I'm guessing that has to do with what they're eating. We'll talk about that in the meat of the conversation. Tell us a little bit about your background and what brings you to the podcast, what you're doing for a living.

All right, I was a military child, predominantly actually in like pretty urban environments. The only thing that was like constant in my life was change. And then I would seek out nature in some way, whether it was a park or if it was easily accessible, like right outside of an urban area. I've just always been fascinating with observing the interactions of nature.

with like plants and insects and animals and well, insects are animals, but it's been the one thing that like grounded me as a child, having to move all the time and not really being able to stay in one place. And so in high school, I ended up in a small mountain town in Colorado, which is pretty well known for having amazing elk and the families there in our hometown.

Catherine Isaak (08:00.238)

you know, they do it to fill their freezer to feed their family. And then we would have so many out of state hunters come in to try to get that big elk. And so that was kind of, think, where it solidified just the connection, the deep connection that a lot of folks have to include myself, you know, with the people, the land and the wildlife. And so life happened and I ended up

joining the Army Reserve, but ended up doing a lot of active duty time. so again, things were changing constantly, but my love for the outdoors really never winged. So I actually like to fish more, but that comes from my grandpa. He was like a semi-pro bass fisherman in the South. And so that's what I grew up doing when I did get to spend time with my grandfather. And so...

I ended up going back to school after the Army and was going to become a wildlife veterinarian, which I feel like is a pretty common theme. And I got super lucky in meeting some awesome mentors to include my advisor now, Dr. Jen Forby, Dr. Jennifer Cruz. And I was trying to broaden my resume for vet school, so I was trying to do more conservation stuff.

instead of just my vet tech job with cats and dogs. And so I got exposed to all kinds of things, like especially here in Idaho, I've worked with ground squirrels, various raptors, songbirds, beaver. And I was captured by just like how amazing studying anything essentially as a job would be. so...

I still was like, my path is vet school. And then again, life happened. And I was super fortunate to get offered, after graduating, two master's positions in the field of biology. And so now I landed in Dr. Jennifer Forby's lab. And I'm a master's student in biology right now.

Bob St.Pierre (10:18.804)

at Boise State University and you're studying Chukars.

I am, I am, yeah.

which we're going to dive deep into in a moment. We'll finish out our introductions. know Andrew is just back from the west, least west for us, east for Levi, Montana and North Dakota. What did you find out there, Andrew?

We found birds. Um, wasn't as prolific as I had hoped for, uh, when it comes to Sharpies specifically, but, you know, I just feel like we didn't put ourselves in the right spot. Like there's more on, on us than like maybe reflection of the bird numbers. mean, I've heard bird numbers are down in general and, um, different specific locations within Eastern Montana. No, I'm not going to drop city names. So if you end up in a bad spot, like maybe that's where you.

Here.

Andrew Vavra (11:14.69)

what I'm talking about, but you still have to go figure it out for yourself. Montana specifically, we're just trying to triangulate with people coming from Western Montana. Some friend had to go back home to Kansas. We were coming from Minnesota. So we'd basically just do a dart at the map. It's like, well, this works for everyone. Let's just find some new country and see what we find, which is half the fun.

I consider the whole trip like close to no cigar. We got close to a couple of big coveys, but like they just flush on the wrong side of the fence. Or if we would have approached a certain hill from any other direction, like we would have been right on it with the South's Cummins or even like the dogs being kind of skylit on the ridge. That was enough to make them pop off, even though the dogs were like handling everything beautifully. So that was frustrating to Montana specifically. As we traveled to North Dakota, we...

stop at a different spot still in Montana. And that is like, this is probably where we should have spent a few days. Like this, this feels a lot better. And we're only about an hour and a half away from where we were originally focusing our efforts. So that just kind of shows the importance of quality habitat. when you, when you see it, it's just like, yeah, that's, that's actually what we really wanted. North Dakota, Huns kind of saved the day.

You know?

Andrew Vavra (12:35.79)

I'm being honest. so luckily they're, they're around, the, same thing. like we kept on getting close, but like never like really stepped into that one big covey that made you feel like that was worth the trip. luckily, anytime you're walking around behind your bird dog, it's always, you know, worth the trip. I had one goal and that was to see a bird dropped over my dog's point. That didn't happen. So that just means I still have the rest of the fall to.

to make that dream come true. And something related to this is I'm guessing that my dog will end up in Idaho this season. I'm hoping that I will eventually be able to meet her there as well. you know, we've heard that numbers might be down a couple of percentage points. They were prolific last year, so I'm okay with that. And I've been promised a lot of bird contacts.

And that's what I want for my dog. So that's where I want to put my dog. And I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of turns into after a prolonged trucker camp.

I kind of dove right into your field report, for a proper introduction, Andrew Vavra, Vice President of Marketing and self-proclaimed chucker, curious, probably the number one bird, least my perception, number one bird on your hit list to experience. that semi-accurate?

Yeah. I mean, I Sharpies are my favorite bird, but I haven't hunted non-pen-raised Chucker yet. But I also have, you know, a desire to experience more type two fun. Those are the types of adventures I like. I like to push myself. I like to have to work for it. I like to go where others won't. Nothing against people, but places where people aren't is where I like to be. So Chucker definitely checks all those boxes, but I've definitely been warned that a lot of people think they.

Andrew Vavra (14:30.942)

Want to hunt chucker, but not a lot of people really end up being good at it or wanting to do it after they've experienced it. So I'm a little curious to see how my attitude is either emboldened or really shifts later this.

You've clearly piqued Catherine's interest because she's flagged me twice. Go ahead Catherine, what would you like to offer?

Now it's just interesting that everybody kind of spoke to what they're hunting and I did not. And so I just want to add that I'm hunting for answers as a very busy grad student. It doesn't give me a lot of time to enjoy the outdoors in a way I'd like to. So that's what I've been hunting.

Right now I'm hunting for knowledge related to chucker because I'm a slow learner and I want to get into it and so I'm all ears with you right now.

This podcast is all about answers, so we're looking for you to provide some for us. I'll give you my quick field report so far. I've been North Dakota for Sharpies and Huns, and I've been up the Gunflint Trail on the edge of the boundary. Well, I've actually been in the boundary waters chasing ruff grouse and spruce grouse and woodcock. And to quote Boulder, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Bob St.Pierre (15:47.242)

Sometimes it rains. So far it's rained on me a lot, could be a little bit of a challenge when you're bird hunting. The birds, in my experience, tend to hold tight. Or in the case of spruce and ruff grouse, they tend to live in the trees when it's raining. So I've had some contact. I've shot three sharpies in two days of hunting.

pair of ruffs and a pair of spruce in three days of grouse hunting. Timber Doodle, I had wonderful points the day before the season opened. And then I didn't get any action on Timber Doodles, but that'll change. love my Timber Doodle hunting and I'm sure that I would be out many, many times. So, so far I'm cautioned to offer a

a numbers report just because it's been raining on me so much that I just don't think it's fair to assess. If I had to, think the numbers are down for roughs, which would mirror the drumming counts, but drumming counts don't take into account the brood reports or in the nesting season. It's only adult carryovers. So we have a lot to learn and I am going to go search for some answers myself, Katherine.

All right. Let me take a moment to recognize Purina ProPlan as the National Dog Food Sponsor of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever's Wildlife Habitat Mission and the presenting sponsor of On the Wing podcast. All of my pups eat Purina ProPlan, not just because Purina supports the Wildlife Habitat Conservation Mission of our organization, which is definitely important to me and it should be important to you too. But Purina ProPlan most

importantly, the team of the world's best scientists and nutritionists behind their dog food. You can learn more at ProPlanSport.com. ProPlan was built for the working dog like yours and like mine. Alright, Levi, you're the chucker aficionado from a hunting perspective amongst us. Why do you love Chukars so much? Why do you declare yourself a devout

Bob St.Pierre (18:12.62)

Chucker Chaser. What about him has hooked you?

definitely can identify with the devoted part. Aficionado, I'm not sure, but I was just thinking about it and this year will be my 32nd season from when I shot my first one. So,

Are you even old enough for that to be possible?

was wondering too, how old, I'm gonna ask the indelicate question, how old were you when you shot your first chucker and was that your first bird that you ever shot?

So I was 12 years old when I shot my first chucker.

Bob St.Pierre (18:49.486)

Yep.

And,

was my first chamber.

Well, I'm

I'm younger than you and I need to learn your skincare routine. So I look about a decade older. So like let's talk after the fact.

Levi Day (19:06.286)

I got you, my man.

I got. Was it on the edge of a cliff? What was the 12-year-old experience?

The 12 year old experience was just much akin to what Andrew was talking about. I was just always an adventurous kid. love seeing what's on the next ridge. I grew up in central Oregon and there's some opportunities within that state to where I had a friend that we could combine a deer hunt. It opened the week before chucker season in the state of Oregon and it still does.

Then we'd stay a week and they had a cabin at a place that's pretty well known for its trucker hunting. It was just the family tradition where they would deer hunt the first four or five days until trucker season opened, and then they would hunt the first weekend of trucker season. it was just literally throw the 870 over the shoulder and go climb and find birds. The beginning of my trucker hunting career was dogless. It was mean.

Not knowing what the word habitat even meant, but just making my own method of where to go and find Burt's and putting the miles down.

Bob St.Pierre (20:22.638)

When I think about Chucker hunting, I do think of this vision of Hell's Canyon and, you know, just vicious country.

Yeah, and that can definitely be a reality. I'm not going to sit here and say that it has to be though. Those birds live in that incredible place and it's iconic. And if for no other reason, people should go and see it because it's breathtaking. But it doesn't always have to be like that, especially when we're experiencing the numbers that we've seen in the last few years.

You know, in the early nineties, we had numbers that were very similar, that were just truly unbelievable. And since then, you know, I would still never not say that, you know, comparatively to the other species that I've had an opportunity to chase all over. I would still say that numbers are, are very good, but being at where we're at now really lends itself to an opportunity to where you can find birds in some of these.

less than well-known areas. The well-known areas are going to carry birds. They will always carry birds and they're fantastic, but it does not have to be something that is, you know, we like to identify it as the sheep hunting of the upland world. it can be, but it does not have to be.

Andrew, I teased a couple of times on this episode and other episodes, you're really hungry to go chase Chukars. Why for you?

Andrew Vavra (22:03.598)

How much time we got? So in the past, I think we've, well, it's not like an uncommon phrase. Like it takes a soul to love a prairie. And where I predominantly hunt, Western, Southern Minnesota, Northern Iowa, now I'll get my trip to the Dakotas once, maybe twice a year if I'm lucky. I'm just an average public land hunter. Walk in the sections in the middle of a country, there's beauty to that, but you have to like open your eyes to the details.

Bob St.Pierre (22:33.71)

sometimes I just want to be wowed and worked. that's what draws me to sharp tail country. It's like that inland sea of grass. It just keeps rolling forever and you chase the next ridge. And I think another important part is you can watch your dog work. Being able to cut open, a huge swath of ground with Merle this past week and just looking down at the, at the transmitter and be like, 100, 150.

Bye.

Andrew Vavra (23:03.182)

200, 220, it just keeps going, but you can still see her and just watching that nose just like slurp up the entire countryside. I love seeing that. Like, but in the heart of pheasant country or rough grouse hunting, you don't get it. You don't like you see like, you see grass moving and like that's where your dog is. you're like, then when you're within like feet, you're still trying to figure out where is the dog and where is it looking?

There's just something that's like really addicting to seeing a big leggy dog cover around. so you combine that with some vistas that are just like more naturally like, wow. And birds. That's, that's kind of what I'm, I'm looking for. And plus if I feel the burn at the end of the day, that makes me appreciate a couple of grain belts then heck yeah.

wow.

Andrew Vavra (23:57.504)

Like, let's burn those calories and let's get out of that calorie deficit and let's share, do a good day and go do it again.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. For me, that top destination bird that's in my mind is the dusky grouse. I've never even seen one before. you know, it has the, you like you talked about, you can't see your dog work to the level that you can in sharp tail country. But I liken it back to, I grew up in the woods, grew up chasing rough grouse, and this is an opportunity to chase a grouse in a mountain setting.

that I've never experienced and I'd love to have that epic adventure in Vista and taste something that's often equated to a great big Ralph Graus. So I'd like to go see that for myself sometime. But you mentioned Grain Belt appropriately. Premium moments in the field are brought to us again this year by Grain Belt Premium and Premium Light, the pheasant-friendly beer.

The new Pheasants Forever camel cases are available in stores across Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Nebraska. Today's premium moment in the field comes from Rose Danaher, longtime Pheasants Forever member in the state of Iowa. And Rose writes in, After a few intense weeks at work, I opted to go solo hunting

on the Iowa opening day of pheasant season. My goal was to harvest a bird over each of my three German shorthaired pointer's points. I grabbed a handful of shells, my shotgun, and off we went. The first two birds were too easy. Sawyer struck first and I was able to call Emmy in for an honor. Eight minutes later, Emmy had a point and Sawyer honored.

Bob St.Pierre (26:01.6)

and I had two roosters in hand in short order. Bon Bon, my third short hair was up next. I knew this would be a tough one as she was not broke, she runs pretty big and doesn't have as much pheasant experience as the other two older dogs. She was working a little too tight for my liking and I talked her into going a little bit farther out along a waterway.

At a hundred yards out, she slammed on a point and I hustled up. She was stunning. And I grabbed my phone to take a picture of her on point. And I thought I could take a photo and then drop the phone and shoot a rooster. Instead of a rooster getting up, a covey of huns burst into the air as I was taking the photo. I dropped my phone and flock shot in a panic.

Luckily, I was able to harvest one flock-shot hun, my first Iowa hun, and Bonnie's first Iowa hun too. My goal was achieved, albeit a little bit different than I expected. What a morning. What a morning indeed, Rose. Thanks for writing in for our Grain Belt Premium moment. For this episode, we got a Grain Belt Premium prize pack headed your way.

All right. All right. The meat of the episode, Catherine, you are doing a research project. It's called Birds as Indicators of Habitat Quality in Ecosystem Health. Tell us your kind of your hypothesis and what you're approaching with this research project.

Yeah, I think what's really important is kind of just the general background of that idea is, especially in the Intermountain West, when you look around, ecosystems are changing. Like it's fire, it's people, it's weather. And so when that happens, we have these large scale changes from encroaching like species like cheatgrass or medusa head.

Catherine Isaak (28:20.36)

or rush skeleton weed, and it makes it hard for the native plant life to establish themselves because those are usually like early growing. And so that's where perhaps the decrease in habitat quality, because as we all know, birds need food and birds need cover in order to have a ton of birds. And so here like that landscape is changing.

And we need to look at nutrition in terms of like for what we're hunting or what's on the landscape. And so we care so much about diet when it comes to human beings that I think we tend to overlook, especially like with wildlife, how important their diet also is, which in the end is going to be important to us, going to be important to hunters, right? You want your game to be healthy so you can feed your family.

And they want to be healthy, kind of humanizing them, but because things like winter survival, energy levels to escape predation, to continue to forage, and then to be able to invest into reproduction to increase population. And so that's why we say that like birds in general are scientifically known to be bioindicators because they have this amazing plasticity.

And when I say plasticity about birds, it's just like they're... Birds are just so cool in general. Think about migratory birds. like ducks have this capacity to shrink their gonads, like in order to be efficient for flight after breeding season, because right weight is the name of the game.

I did not know that, by the way.

Catherine Isaak (30:11.84)

Yeah, no birds are s-

Sticky card. I didn't have that on my bingo at all.

Well, like birds are just incredible. And specifically, like my project here in Idaho is on chucker. Because number one, they're a hardy bird. You can find them at a wide variety of elevation gradients and different types of habitat. They have a very diverse diet and it's very general. That's why I refer to them as generalist prey because they have so much dietary overlap.

with other upland game birds, with songbirds, with rodents, with rabbits, you know, who then provide food for other species that may be like the bigger species that people go for, like bear and whatnot. And so we want to look at their diet and see what about that is going to constitute a good body condition, right? So for all those other reasons that I brought up, maybe like population and

We need to understand like essentially like what's a good diet for, for chucker and in turn, because they share such dietary overlap, the ecosystem as a whole. And then there are going to be some other niche species that maybe don't necessarily eat what they're eating. But then you can focus on those and know that generally a lot of species on the landscape are doing well because chucker are doing well.

Bob St.Pierre (31:47.886)

So if I can try to re-articulate what you just said and tell me if I've captured it or not, but know, oftentimes, you know, I think about habitat through the lens of different life cycle stages of a bird, whether that be a pheasant, a bob-boy quail, or a chucker, talking about nesting cover during reproduction time and brood cover during the time when,

chicks around the ground. You mentioned winter survival, thermal cover during the winter. You're looking at it rather than through the lens of different stage of a year or a life cycle. You're looking at it through a very specific focus of what are they eating and how does that correlate to habitat, which we somewhat, I somewhat think about very specifically around brood rearing time and pollinators and insect production, but I don't

think about it as much outside of maybe thermal food plots when it's really heavy winters and different things. But you're singularly focused on habitat as a means of producing food and how that influences body condition of the birds in particular that you're studying, but then also how those birds fit into the entire food chain web of life of the biome.

that your study is at an accurate distillation of your research.

Yeah, I would give you probably an A minus. I'm just kidding.

Bob St.Pierre (33:27.212)

Hey, always the teacher. I'm good with an A-. Yeah. And they say C's get degrees.

That is real, unfortunately, sometimes. And so I guess specifically, like even with chucker, because they're not migratory, here's another fun fact for you. Their digestive system length will get longer when they're eating poor quality food, and it'll get shorter when their diet is just right.

So the food stays in their system longer to pull out even more nutrients before it leaves?

Yeah, so they have this thing called the seika. So they're little too, they're long, they can be long tubes that come off the small intestine. It's kind of the juncture of the small and the large intestine of these birds. And in those tubes are like these specialized microbes that help chucker and help a lot of other like, like grouse and whatnot, birds like that to really get the most

bang for their buck in terms of what they're eating. So it's like breaking it down to try to get every little bit of nutrition out of what they're eating.

Bob St.Pierre (34:43.042)

So give us the overview of what you're finding. What are some key takeaways of this research?

So we're still on the finding stage. I'm in my second field season, but we're looking at things like that length. We're looking at things like the muscle depth of their gizzard, because to grind down terrible food, you need a bigger muscle, and it usually takes a season for that muscle to grow. We're also using things like mass and body fat, and we're trying to make all this into a body condition type of indices, and then look at diet.

and how that's influencing their body condition, right? And so we think, or we predict that birds that have a more diverse diet, that has more native forbs and plants, should be in that better body condition that leads to population success, hopefully.

So give us kind of a rundown of what chukka do normally eat given good habitat conditions versus what are poor habits, like describe poor habitat conditions and what they're eating in those scenarios.

Well, some people are gonna come for me, and that's okay.

Bob St.Pierre (36:02.734)

Okay, you're a scientist, this is all fat.

no it's not. We're learning things all the time. I will never say that I'm an expert. There is quite the...

popular vote that Tucker love cheatgrass. They love it. It is the best thing. And anecdotally, we haven't done any kind of modeling or stats on this. We've been noticing that birds that, because I do necropsies on them to take all those measurements and whatnot, and birds that predominantly eat cheatgrass, I mean, they're surviving, right?

It's a source of food and why wouldn't it be? It seeds twice a year here in Idaho. It greens up twice a year in Idaho. But for rest of that grass's life cycle, it's actually not nutritious. It would be the equivalent of us eating glass. And so, yeah, because it's made out of silica once it matures. And so what we've been finding, and it's really funny, sometimes Levi will send me a photo of things that he's found in the crop and he's like, what is this plant?

And I guess the top three things I could offer that I've seen is, yeah, there's some cheatgrass, but it's definitely the seed only and the early green up. And then bulbous bluegrass bulbs, they scratch the ground for those. They look kind of like a clump of little garlic or something that you'd like maybe cut off the top and put it in there. And then the other thing is what Levi had asked me.

Catherine Isaak (37:43.15)

It's the Prairie Star flower. It makes these, it only blooms for a month and a half here in Idaho and it's in March and April. And it's the tiniest, most, you would probably walk over this flower and not even notice that it's there. But then for the rest of the season, it's making these vegetative buds. they're the equivalent of if Chuck or work could eat baked potatoes, right? We could get a lot of energy.

out of a baked potato, or at least I can. I love a baked potato.

You so you mentioned cheatgrass. The other two plants, are those native? Are they invasive? Is that good stuff that they're eating or is it like they're forced to eat it because there's not lot of alternatives?

So Prairie Star is native. I'm still learning my plant stuff, so maybe some botanists will also come for me. But Bulbous Bluegrass is not native, but it's more accepted than something truly invasive like Cheatgrass, because Cheatgrass will take over the ground and not allow for anything else to grow. Whereas Bulbous Bluegrass grows kind of in these bunches.

you know, isn't just going to clear out any space for a native plant to be able to grow.

Andrew Vavra (39:05.878)

You are making me feel so much better right now, just in terms of what I just learned from you. Because on a previous podcast that Bob asked me to join, we were doing a breakdown of just like Western hunting. We had our Western regional director and our chief conservation officer. And I was talking about how I'm in my head about cheatgrass. So I learned how invasive, how terrible it is for the landscape and sage-grouse in particular, and the sagebrush step. But it's like, but I like birds.

So it's like, if the birds that I want to go chase are dependent upon this nasty grass, I know we need to get rid of that nasty grass, but is that going to tank the populations? I was doing mental gymnastics about like, how selfish am I going to be about like, do I want the bird or do I want the landscape? Right? Yeah. So here you'd be like, know, cheatgrass ain't all it. In fact, it's not all that great for them. Well, now I'm thinking like, scourge the earth, get rid of cheatgrass, even though I know how like,

absurdly difficult that is. I always feel better about like, no, like let's go all in on it.

Then when you scorch the earth, the cheek rest moves in first anyway.

There's a scientist coming back out.

Andrew Vavra (40:18.274)

Dredge it below the seed bank, whatever we gotta do.

What do we want them to be eating? What would be, like when you do necropsies of birds that are in great physical condition, what's in their gullet or gizzard?

Yeah, so it depends on the bird. There were quite a few young birds, so I imagine we're gonna see crops with a little more insects this year. Just because they need that for protein to like just grow, much less trying to get fat on them, right? They eat a lot of seeds and they do eat a lot of like native forbs. So that's like, they might eat a flowering part of a plant. Anything?

If you think about it, it's what is the plant investing to make itself grow? Those are like the really tasty bits for these birds, right? Because that's where all the energy is. The plant is investing energy into this. So you're going to get like your highest calories or the more nutritionist value out of those things.

So, Andrew's comment about cheatgrass, how much that, at least the perception is that Chukars and cheatgrass go in jelly. Is that true? And when you're doing these necropsies, how frequently do you find cheatgrass in these dead birds?

Catherine Isaak (41:34.519)

hand and work.

Catherine Isaak (41:48.012)

Yeah, that's an excellent and slightly loaded question. I think Idaho is very unique in the sense of we have a lot of water on our landscape. Places like Nevada and Utah that also have checker don't. so trying to restore that and not have cheatgrass on their landscape is very difficult. And so I feel like when you're hunting there, yeah, probably. These birds are super hardy, so they're going to make the best of

of a situation. And so yeah, they're probably eating a lot of cheatgrass. And is it good or is it bad? We don't know. That's what my research is about. I don't think we'll ever totally get rid of cheatgrass. It's it's kind of like once it's there, it's there. But I think this will help, especially the uniqueness of Idaho having water, is that we could rehabilitate the land as opposed to restore.

like with the knowledge of like, some cheek rats gonna be on the landscape, but also we could plant these other things that, that would be beneficial to wildlife and ecosystems in general. And it just so happens, chucker too.

Levi, when you hear kind of you know, Catherine's findings, what strikes you as, well, I knew that, as a bird hunter, and what strikes you as like, I didn't see that coming. Are there things on each side of the fence for you?

Yeah, for sure. So, rewinding the clock back to when Catherine first reached out to me and, you know, told me about this research project and kind of gave me an opportunity to be a little bit involved, you know, as a really a sideline cheerleader and a guy who helps to provide some specimens for her. We had this conversation and she had asked me, you know, very inquisitively what my initial thoughts were. And I probably wasn't afraid.

Levi Day (43:48.192)

I'm honest to offer them up more than she asked, but that I, I've never bought into the, the cheat grass thing that hard. have I found times of year that it's provided, especially the early, early green up, sources for them without question unequivocally. To say that the two are peanut butter and jelly, as you put it, I have found that to be a fallacy as a guy who's shot, Chucker and

most of the West. and that's not just here in the state of Idaho. So I was just so excited about this whole project, to be honest, because we're talking about a bird that is near and dear to my heart. And yes, I fully understand they're a non-native and I love the native species as well, but there just hasn't been a lot of research done in the past. We don't really know a lot.

And when we don't really know, think it's really to perpetuate truth that maybe isn't. a lot of it comes out of our own lack of knowledge and not only the bird, the landscape, right? Of knowing what these plants are, of me opening a crop up on a bird and immediately sending a picture to Katherine saying, what the heck is this? Because I have no idea. And especially if you go back, you know, a lot of years pre-iPhone before we could take a picture and try to

easy.

Levi Day (45:13.55)

identify what some of this stuff was. It was just a lot easier, I think, to perpetuate what the old timers had said. And it never did really track with me, but I didn't have enough intelligence or the knowledge to be able to say anything different. So I most of the time just didn't say anything at all. But yeah, I'm just super excited to not only play a teeny tiny itty bitty part in all of this, to just that the research is being done on a bird that is so near and dear to my heart.

is really cool.

Go ahead, Heather.

I mean, I'd also like to offer, like, if the landscape was a sea of cheatgrass, there's no cover there. And so then hungry birds are going to do riskier behaviors, right? And that increases their level of predation. if we find that cheatgrass isn't nutritionally as valuable as other things, birds don't always make other birds if the timing's not right.

That's like biologically just how like a lot of wildlife is, right? They're super skinny and they're just surviving. Why would a hen invest into reproduction, which is gonna take energy, valuable energy from her, right? And potentially that hen may die, predated upon or starve while trying to also feed some chicks.

Bob St.Pierre (46:43.054)

You know Levi mentioned he supplied birds to you for research. We haven't touched on how hunters play a role in connecting with you and providing you with the information. Talk through that a

Yeah, I think also an honor and privilege about my research project is like how collaborative it is because I feel like conservation and public lands is a collaborative effort no matter who you are and your beliefs. And so like I get to work with hunters. I get to work with nonprofits like the Idaho Chucker Chasers and now like Pheasants Forever. Thank you so much for having me on here and Quell Forever.

And then I'm in academia and then I'm working with Idaho Fishing Game and it's this, my project does this collective effort. And so I, who's on the landscape the most is the hunters, right? Like for some people like make sure their vacation days like is for a hunt. And so, and they have longevity, like they tend to go back to the same places that they know are fruitful and.

they have like a wealth of information and it would like kind of be insane of me to not work with hunters. And so I tell them about my project. I tell them what we're trying to learn. And then I try to sell them on a bird donation to me, preferably a whole bird. There is a way to like give me a de-breasted bird because you know, that's coveted.

Yeah, and so I've done events. I went to Idaho Tucker Chasers Foundation Dinner and found some pretty devoted hunters, which nine of them have not gotten back to me. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. People are vicious.

Andrew Vavra (48:41.954)

Now you're on notice.

you

Well, I'm a loyal boat. give, I make sure and get her my stuff.

Yeah, and like I get it, they're providing food or for whatever reason, right? Or they don't wanna give me their top secret hunting spot. A, I don't share those, like they'll get redacted. No one will see them. I don't use them myself to try to go hunt checker. But yeah, so the hunters have been surprisingly...

very giving. And I don't know why I say surprisingly, but I just kind of just thought that they would just want to hold on to something that is very difficult to hunt. Like, right? You're in habitat that is cardio inducing, high cardio inducing, and like, you you spend all this time with your bird, your dogs to like train them. And so, yeah, they donate those birds to me and then we look at the diet and the crop and then we...

Catherine Isaak (49:44.312)

do necropsies to get the rest of our data points.

Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. mean, it doesn't surprise me actually, know, hunters have always been super connected to knowledge of the birds that they love, you know, improving habitat, improving understanding so that it can perpetuate success in the field with our dogs. So it does make sense. We all want to better understand these birds because we love them all dearly in the landscapes where they live.

You've talked about it in your opening about your ability to sneak up on birds. As you're explaining that, of creep up on them. My expectation is that, well, yeah, obviously if anybody's going to get close to them, it's a scientist, it's a biologist who understands what they're eating, when they're eating, eating in a given habitat circumstance.

Do you think that's an accurate assessment? Like you walk into an area and you're like, well, this is obviously the best habitat because it's got the best food source. I'm going to be quiet and sneak through here and probably locate her.

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely what I do. Like, just, I think in terms of conservation and like being able to sneak up on these birds is you have to think like them, right? And so what's important to them. So for example, this opening weekend, I saw a lot of hunters missing some coveys. I don't help them. I'm just out collecting my plants.

Catherine Isaak (51:31.094)

It was so hot, they were hunkered down in cover and they were changing slope as the sun moved, right? Because it's so hot. I mean, I was sweating bullets just hiking around and doing my work, but like, yeah. And then I also have really good hearing. so hearing their little little chucks, I can hear really well. And so between the two of those things,

I would maybe I'm a bird cat. People call me cat. Not necessarily a bird dog, but it's a good time. I like creeping up on them and just checking them out. They probably don't like that,

So we're going to get to some tips and we'll ask you if you talked about hunters missing coveys not knowing where they are in particular times. we're going to move to kind of some hunting tips for folks. Anything on the research front that you want to touch on before I leave that portion of the conversation, Catherine?

I think I just kind of want to retouch, like we talked about my research extensively, but like what's really another really cool thing is we bring, we call it Chukars in the classroom and we bring exactly that. Like they're doing things very similar to my research. And the reason why I think that's important is, the hunting demographic, maybe lack some of the younger folks that didn't grow up, you know, in that.

in that kind of family life of hunting and maybe even has some negative thoughts about it. And I feel like when we bring this into the classroom, it highlights the importance of hunters in general that like really care about the landscape, really care about the wildlife, but like also use the resources, right? Which is okay. And I feel like...

Catherine Isaak (53:29.582)

Well, I don't feel like we assess them, we give them a poll in the beginning to ask them their perceptions about hunting. And some of them are like, I'm not interested or, oh, I don't think it's great or, know, for insert whatever reason. And then at the end of the course, this is a animal nutrition course. At Boise State. Yeah. You'll see that their perception of hunting has changed in one semester. And it's because.

at Boise Levels 2.

Catherine Isaak (53:58.328)

We're doing actual research. Levi is going to be a guest in the classroom. We have agency people come in and talk about it. And so I like to think that.

I like to think that by giving these students this opportunity, it becomes even more of a collaboration, right, of everybody really caring about conservation and like understanding each other and able to have a conversation as opposed to just identifying all of the ways that we are different. Because we're all on the same team. We want public lands to perpetuate, right, for whatever your reason may be. And so...

I just really wanted to highlight that, that like not only is a collaboration, but we bring and we hope to change perceptions and minds. Yeah, of all involved.

goes.

Before we get to like the hunting hack part of this, which I'm definitely interested in. This kind of gets to the earlier point of. What are Catherine now? You're throwing me for a All right, Catherine. Like why are these hunters giving up birds? Well, it's because we're all curious people and we want to learn more. like we're puzzle solvers. And so something that I just want to ask a very self-serving question because I want to learn. Walk me through the.

Levi Day (55:00.302)

Should I say cat?

Go with Catherine.

Andrew Vavra (55:20.782)

like a day in the life of a chucker, like not early season, not super late season, like a typical like October, November day and like some of the areas that you're, you know, creeping around like a cat. Like, like what is like the typical movement or day in the life of a chucker like, cause I can paint that picture for a peasant. I can kind of do it with a certain quail, but for a chucker, like I have no idea in terms of are they going up?

or down or the different slopes for different parts of the day. Help me understand like what this, how big is this day to day.

Yeah, that's a really good question. And this is all just like anecdotal observations when I've been in the field. So birds don't have teeth. I don't know if you were aware of that. And that's why they have a gizzard. And in that gizzard, they have to have stones to help grind that food with that muscle. And so I would say on average, before they start their foraging day, if you will, they're making sure they have the tools they need, right, to actually like process that food.

And so I've noticed with some of my donations, trucker will be like, our trucker hunters will say, I got this bird really early because I do ask time, time of day in which they obtain the bird. And 99 % of the time that crop is empty. So the diet question maybe doesn't get any data. so for sure, some of them are, I might even say 50 % of them are doing that because some already have rocks in there.

And then it depends seasonally, Like access to water over time. Like in October, I think things are a little more moist generally. And so they can be further away from water. And then if it's really hot, as the slopes change for what's getting sunshine, they move because they want to be undercover. So I feel like wide open places, they could be in, but for the most part, like,

Catherine Isaak (57:28.898)

Where's the food at? Do they need water? And do they have some cover to be able to hide? Because I saw a golden eagle trying to steal some of my specimens while I was up there this weekend. And they all hunkered down, even the little chucks. Got real quiet.

So it's not like patterning a big buck and like being able to predict like, okay, around this time of day, they're going to be up top and then there might be like down there later on. It's just, it's all quality of habitat and kind of temperature dependent based on shade and with any water.

Yeah, because I mean, think about if we get lost in the woods, we care about water, we care about cover, because we need to stay warm and we care about food. And they're very similar to us in that way.

Temperature is also going to play a role in there. You know, we can really very talk, you know, late October, early November. In this area, you know, you can be 60 degrees during the day in late October and 60 degree days in late October is pretty warm for a bird. So they are going to be seeking out, you know, in those mid to late afternoons, more of those shaded cover areas, but the inverse can also be true. We have an overcast day.

And it's a little bit colder, it's 40 degrees. They're going to be seeking out the sun. Those birds are looking for the sunshine to warm up. So there's a lot of different variables that have to have to be accounted for when you're starting to talk about Chucker, because you're talking about such a vast landscape, right? And also topography is going to play a big role in that too, and where the thermal cover was from the night before. So a lot of times those birds are going to be.

Levi Day (59:15.618)

Working off that time of year, think you're looking at, you know, your north slopes. If you're talking late October, the afternoons are going to be good places to go and be checking out. And by the time we start moving to about November 10th or 15th, the inverse, you know, we're going to start be looking at south side slopes just because those birds are going to be wanting the sun. and, and yeah, by then we do not have those birds congregating on water sources. There's enough.

pools and puddles and lava rock and stuff around. Plus the early season pressure. A lot of people tend to congregate towards known water sources and it disperses those birds. So fortunately our water usually comes at a pretty opportune time to help really disperse them and give them a better chance as well.

And the other thing I'd like to offer is the type of soil that you may be in, checkered dust. So if it's really rocky soil, I see them all the time. They're like little dust bowls in a finer type of soil, where you can see they've kind of hunkered down because it helps keep their feathers in shape.

So anytime you're at the head of like, if you've got the head of a draw that's heavily sage brushed, lot of that soil at the head of it is going to be a little bit softer and more pliable for them to dust in. And then those birds can also use that as nesting cover and then we'll move out up on the slopes to grit as well as get sunshine or stay in the shade.

One more corral area before we go to hunting tips. It seems like appropriate time Levi to just give us an update for our journey to conservation careers. Because as we talk with Katherine about maybe Katherine's not a hardcore bird hunter, but yes, she is a hardcore bird hunter. You know, look through the lens of biology and there's all sorts of folks out there, whether they grew up with a shotgun in their hands or a microscope.

Bob St.Pierre (01:01:20.654)

You know, there's a place for them in conservation in this world that, you know, we all hold dear and dear and we want to perpetuate in the future. And that's part of the journey to conservation career. So, tell us a little bit about what you got.

Yeah, I really appreciate it, Bob. you know, being a part of this study is so near and dear to me in so many ways. Personally, obviously, again, a passion for the bird and the landscape, but hearing Catherine talk about, you know, bringing truckers into the school and how we're giving real life examples of the North American model. And we're starting to teach people about the importance that hunters play in the science that we use to manage our incredible wildlife resources that we have.

And then peaking the interest and people that, you know, may have an affinity for the outdoors, but, don't know how to pursue a career within it. You know, there's, there's a lot of different opportunities that exist. we've talked about the programs under conservation leadership and journey to conservation careers before on the podcast. So I won't go too deep into it. but I definitely want to highlight the fact that, you know, we do have a virtual college and career fair coming up in December.

It is going to have 12 booth holders with representatives from state agency, other NGOs, as well as institutions that specialize in natural resources. So it really will be a one-stop shop for whether you're a high school student that is interested in talking to some of these institutions or universities about everything from campus life to tuition costs or prerequisites, all the way up to early industry professionals who have their resumes and are ready to start looking at

potential career opportunities with some of the organizations there and the agencies that are present. And registration for that will open October 1. And yeah, that career fair again is on December 4th. And it is free for anybody. And I definitely would try to inspire people to take a look at pheasantsforever.org forward slash J2CC.

Levi Day (01:03:30.426)

and look at the incredible programs that we have that are creating opportunities for all people. I really think of myself as a living representation of Journey to Conservation Careers as someone who spent a lot of time in another career field and always dreamed of being able to work in this space, but didn't see the outlet other than being a biologist or a conservation officer and realize all of the opportunity that existed and how each and every one of us, whether you're in marketing or you're

know, the biologist with boots on the ground helps to tell the story and to drive conservation forward and each and every one of us play a vital role in that. So I definitely would urge people to check it out and I'm happy to take any questions or visit with folks about that and help them along in their journey.

We'll include a link in the show notes and you can learn a little bit more about who's going to be at that virtual career fair. We'll invite listeners to forward it on to anybody, whether they're college age or younger or older, get them involved, get them into conservation. need a new army of folks that care about the outdoors and conservation habitat, wild places, public lands, you name it.

All right, before we get to hunting hacks, I want to thank Onyx is a proud sponsor of On the Wing podcast. If you're a bird hunter, whether it's Chukars, pheasants, or quail, you probably have the Onyx app on your phone. But if you don't, let me convince you, not only is it the greatest tool for figuring out where to go hunt using their Onyx app for defining where public lands are.

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Bob St.Pierre (01:05:45.806)

You can learn more at onyxhunt.com and use the code PFQF at that website for 20 % off and a link will also be in the show notes. right, Tapp, Katherine, you mentioned on opening weekend you noticed hunters missing where Covey's Chukars were. You don't have to give all the secrets away, but if you were to offer a tip,

to hunters about thinking differently so they would find more birds. What would you tell them?

Yeah, would, because Levi brought it up very pointedly, I would assess the environment first, because it was so hot, it was so hot, that why would the birds be out in the open or maybe somewhere that doesn't provide some shade, right? So I would assess your environment to kind of just take literally a temperature check.

of like, where would I want to be if I was outside and had to just be out here? And then they were just hunkered down in the cover. Like, don't feel like I'm like brilliant, a brilliant scientist to like notice that, that they're gonna hang out in the sage because it has shade, it protects from predation, and there was a lot of good food there. So.

You could look around and just if you see variation in plant types, that's probably a good indicator as well. So I would take a temp check. I would look for some places where they could hide and also base that temp check like, do they even need cover? Because Levi did bring up a good point, right? When it's colder, they want to be warm. And then just take a look around and if you're like, I see a wide variety of plant material out on the landscape.

Catherine Isaak (01:07:47.64)

They're there.

All right, Levi, got a couple of flatlanders. You got Andrew, who's grown up in pheasant country, loves sharpies. I grew up in the Northwoods. I've never experienced truckers. What would you tell a couple of flatlanders when they're out west on their first trucker out?

You may not like my answer, but it's going to be a really, really simple one. And that's just go. It's an incredible experience. we are literally living what, in our, in our era, we're living the good old days. the amount of opportunity that there is out there through a wide variety of landscapes. The Great Basin in itself offers everything from the extreme

person that is like, you know, I want to pack my lunch in my best and I'm going to leave the truck at eight 30 in the morning and I'm not coming back until five. Um, that opportunity is there and I want to do, you know, 2,500 feet of vert and hike 10 miles. It's there. Um, and if you're someone that has more physical limitations than that and

you or you like a different experience. There's landscapes that will also support you that have birds. And as far as, you know, people like, I don't know where to go or to me.

Levi Day (01:09:26.606)

Chucker hunting is one of those that if you look at a map, the best advice I could ever tell anybody is that every major river system in the West holds Chukars. So every river drainage that comes down and runs into the Great Basin has got birds. And within that provides a myriad of experience, whether it's, and again, an elevation and even habitat types and

In the era that we are living right now, there is birds very prevalent in most of them. Sure, there's varying degrees, higher quality habitat means more opportunity, but go. If you go, you'll be able to start putting the pieces together. You'll start to gain a deeper appreciation for the landscape. I love what Andrew said that it takes a soul to love the prairie. I feel like the Great Basin is the same way.

It is absolutely breathtaking. The sunsets that you see are second to none. And, there's very few places, unfortunately, left in this world that you can stand there and look as far as you possibly can see in at night and not see a light. And if you're there in the day, you may never see another car. And there's just the room to support that. The West is vast and provides a tremendous amount of opportunity and gosh, just, just go.

The more that we can get people to experience it. I would love to get rid of the, you know, the moniker of the devil bird or you hunt them once is for fun. After that's revenge. Like in my mind, there's not many more gentlemanly birds. They're just excellent game birds. Covey Rises is exceptional. They provide fantastic dog work opportunities. They just, they're really special.

So I'm on the edge of being convinced. Beautiful country, you you kind of get what you want in terms of the adventure. But I have this hanging fear, particularly around my dog. And I'm a person that has carried a dog dying in my arms out of the woods, right? So it can happen in any setting.

Bob St.Pierre (01:11:51.64)

But I sure don't want to have a dog go off a cliff or get snapped by a rattlesnake. How nervous are you when you're hunting? Or you talked about like when it's warm, you just go do something else and there's certain times a year where you can eliminate the rattlesnake concern or maybe not eliminate it, but decrease it. There's places you can go to eliminate the cliff concern. Talk me through that a little bit.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. mean, it's much akin to go into, you know, Eastern Montana. you know, that this time of year chasing Sharpies, that there's a real opportunity to find snakes. if you're dead set and this is the only time that you get to go as early season for truckers. snakes are a real concern. They're on the landscape. There's no question. some places very prevalent, and some not as much. I don't have the, the magic gate ball on that, a where is and where isn't.

So for me, another amazing thing about having the opportunity to hunt chucker is most States offer very long liberal seasons. you know, we get to chase them here for five months, four and a half months. So, I don't put a dog on the ground this time of year. there's a lot of, I'm very, very fortunate. There's a lot of other birds that I can go chase to alleviate that because it's very much a concern. It's very much real life.

and with, but with that said, I know a lot of people that hunt the early season and love it. you know, but you would just probably exercise the same concerns or, that you do in Eastern Montana. You know, you're going to start at daylight and, it starts hitting 65 degrees. You're going to make sure and be out of there. that's not foolproof by any means, but, I'm sure it does help. I've, I have went as long as I've seen snakes.

Um, here before last, I saw a snake on Halloween bed. So it can happen. Um, but most of the time by November one, I would say you're completely in the clear. And even at that, then you've got three months of incredible opportunity. Um, as far as cliffs, uh, it's another one that I hear people concerned, um, with. I'm not saying it hasn't happened because I, I 100 % know it has.

Levi Day (01:14:12.0)

Again, it's being really aware of those. I talked about river corridors, being really, really aware of the habitat of which you're putting the dog on the ground. There's a lot of country that you can go to that that is a non-issue. But there's other country that it absolutely could be an issue. You know, if you didn't have a broke dog or you're putting a dog on the ground, that's a young puppy and you know, that cubby goes to take off. In my experience though, it's pretty amazing how intelligent.

dogs are and how they adapt as a guy who's hunted the Northwoods. I'm far more fearful of impaling situations in the Northwoods or even hunting rough grouse here. I have far more injuries on dogs that I have to take care of hunting the woods than I ever do running in Chuckle Country. So, foot care is a major consideration for anybody who wants to come out. There's no question making sure your dogs have good heart feet.

And that still may not matter. The pads are definitely can be a concern. Yeah, there's a ton of opportunity for people that don't have to be in a lot of that real clipped out scary kind of country. again, yeah, just do the research. It's there.

Andrew, what's on your mind that I haven't asked?

Andrew Vavra (01:15:40.366)

just got to figure out how I can get some more PTO to get out there this fall. mean, it's so, to Levi's point, like just go. know, the, the very good friend that I was sharing the Sharpie field with, she looked at me she's like, this is the season for Merle to like really become a special dog. She should be in Chuck her country with me. Like I can guarantee a lot of Covey contacts and have, you want to be greedy and just.

Hunter yourself in suboptimal conditions this fall and set yourself back for another eight, 10 years, or do you want to sacrifice a little bit of time personally for her benefit for her entire lifetime? I'm like Hemin and Han there, I'm hunting with my wife and we're kind of looking at each other and it's just like.

Taker.

So I'm going to hunt Merle through the end of October and then I'm going to throw her in the back of my friend's truck. And I'm just going to figure out how to get her back before the Rooster road trip in December. it's, to be very honest, part of me is like, well, this might force me to get out there and experience this too. Like this might be like, I have to go do it. I just hope that the work life balance and all that allows that to happen versus her just hitching a ride on another person's truck back home.

So I guess that's like the work side of this podcast that we need to figure out, Bob. But I'm very much looking forward to her getting out there and experiencing this country. And I'd rather not just live vicariously through her. So hopefully I can get out there and if she happens to be in Idaho, then I know a couple of people who I can text and bother and this is setting up very well for me.

Levi Day (01:17:28.494)

Yeah, it's honey when you said, you know, you making the sacrifice for her. all I could think about is if you come, it's not making a sacrifice. I know that we all have work life balance stuff and we got to be able to make that work. but for you to come experience this and knowing what drives you and what you love. yeah, it will be a rich experience.

Yeah, it's, and I think what you're saying is, important for a lot of people in the Midwest to hear, especially when it comes to landscapes and the dangers. And I'm guessing there's a lot of people out West, they're rolling their eyes really hard. And like, that's something to keep in mind. It's like, people are doing this all season long. Like, like it's different to us, but the nice, like that's the fear factor. Just like you're a little hesitant, like running a dog full steam through the North woods. Whereas I vest them up and let, let's go.

so sometimes you just need to put yourself in a difficult situation. realize, this isn't that difficult after all. It was just different.

And there's so many states that offer it, right? I mean, we start, I'm not going to start naming them off, but you look at the states that have Chucker, there is a wide array of landscapes for you to go run a dog in with still a lot of great numbers and great opportunity. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that, don't be afraid of the unknown when it's talking, you're talking about Hell's Canyon.

Everybody knows Hell's Canyon. I'm not afraid to say that word. don't feel like that's hot spotting. It's that, that, that Canyon takes care of itself. It will eliminate people. You could tell everybody in the world where you shot every single bird on any social media channel you want, and it's going to take care of itself because the great equalizer there is the mountain. But there is some concerns when you hunt that country. There's no question.

Levi Day (01:19:25.614)

I've had a dog go for a retrieve and it wasn't even a cliffy. We're just talking, this is the level of steepness. A dog going hard for a retrieve downhill and go to stop to catch the bird. And all four feet leave the ground and do three flips in the air and hit. And I didn't think she was going to stop until she got to the bottom. Broke teeth out of the side of her head. I mean, that country is big and deep and steep. It's no joke. But with that said.

There's a lot of other places it doesn't have to be that extreme.

There's dangers anywhere.

There's no doubt. There is no doubt.

and my that wasn't broke almost went off a cliff for a covey scale quail. Like I said, I carried a dog dying in my arms out of Northern Wisconsin. I recognize it can happen anywhere. It's just there is that stigma when it comes to...

Levi Day (01:20:25.262)

And Andrew at the nail on the head, we all have it. You know, when I loaded up to go to the Northwoods the first time, the tick situation, right? It's really, it's a great parallel. But because it's a real thing you need to be aware of, you need to do your homework. You need to repair in a way that you feel comfortable and gather as much information as you can. Should it stop you from having that adventure? Absolutely not. But it does deserve some attention. So.

I don't blame people. Yeah. think a lot of people might roll their eyes that live out West and poo poo. some of those conversations, but if you've traveled at all with the dogs that you love, like your family, our job is to take care of them. And the last thing we want to do is put them in harm's way and you owe it to them to do the work and to gain the knowledge and to make sure that you're doing the best you can. But there is nothing out here that should stop somebody from.

coming and having an incredible experience, whether any of the number of states that have these opportunities.

Looking at the time, we're going to do a lightning round closing thought. We'll start with Andrew. What did you learn today? What do you want to put as the cherry on top of this Chukar Sunday?

In addition to ducks drinking their gonads?

Levi Day (01:21:48.536)

That's the winner.

Yeah, that's top of the list. guess for me, the main takeaway is cheatgrass ain't all it. Chukars are dietary generalists. And if you look beyond the gizzard in terms of like as hunters, we're always like examine like where's the eating, but, look closer at the body composition, that's actually a really cool way to maybe have a better idea of the overall health of the ecosystem, which I don't want to say, well, that will help you predict.

how good the future will be, but it could speak to the prevalence of other birds in that area or maybe next year, like how that compares year to year. So as curious hunters, like you can start doing your own science and think like, is this landscape like producing or like in a big way or are these birds holding on like because they have a lot of grit and I'm not just talking about like what's in their, their gizzard. So it's, it's has been really enlightening.

for me and Katherine. I loved hearing everything you had to say. And any students that get to have you in class and then the combo with Levi showing up too, sign me up. I'll take some more student loan debt, like whatever. It's a lucky classroom.

All right, Levi, you go to go now. Catherine gets the final word. So go ahead and what's your closing thought, Levi?

Levi Day (01:23:14.894)

Well, having been super fortunate to have heard a lot of this information already from Catherine, it's not as much the science stuff today. Although I love hearing it over and over, I do feel like I pick up new stuff every time. It's just an incredible study and she's a welcome knowledge. And I feel again, so fortunate to be a part of it. I guess what jumps out at me is a couple things. I think it's always good for us to be reminded of how incredible.

what we might have out our own back door is, and nothing solidifies that more than when you talk to other people that, that might be their dream. And, yeah, it just makes me feel so, so very fortunate saying that you've never seen a dusky before. Bob, it's like, all I want to do is reach through the screen and pick you up and put you in my pocket because it's like, getting this gracious, my friend. that's a whole nother bird we could talk for an hour or so about.

Yeah, just really fortunate and very thankful to just be a part of all this. So not really doesn't pertain. know, but it just, it's at the forefront of my mind.

Yeah, that's poignant. I can identify with that with people that dream of once, you know, walking through the fruity pebble forest in search of a rough grouse that they maybe only get once in their life. It does ground you in. We all live in a little bit different beauty of a place. And it's validating to hear that when it comes out of somebody else's Catherine, final words are yours. First of all, thank you.

Thank much for joining us and sharing all this time and insight with us. What do you want to leave our listeners with?

Catherine Isaak (01:25:00.366)

It's not just ducks. It's a lot of migratory birds do the gonadal regression. If that's what we're leaving this podcast from. Yeah, I think, I guess my takeaway from this is I didn't realize how wistful people in other areas of our country are about chucker partridge because I'm super lucky to get to see them and they're

They're just such a beautiful game bird. That's so hardy that can put up with a lot from our environment and getting chased down by bird dogs. And so it was just really cool to hear like the excitement that both of you have to potentially come out West. I don't want to say shocking, but I guess I just maybe take it for granted how beautiful they are. Yeah.

I guess the last thing I want to say is if you're in Idaho and you hunt chucker and you would like to potentially maybe donate me a bird, I would appreciate it very much. You could reach me by my email address. It's Katherine Tharp at u.boisestate.edu. So C-A-T-H.

How would somebody do that?

Catherine Isaak (01:26:27.156)

Erinetharpe (at) u.boisestate.edu.

We'll leave that in the show notes as well. Thank you very much for sharing your insight. Absolutely. was very fun conversation. For Katherine, Isaak, Levi Day, Andrew Vavra, I'm Bob Shapierre, reminding you to always follow the dog. Something good will rise. Thanks for listening, folks.

Thanks so much for having me.